Dr. S is correct about PFO not being an investigative audio journal. Doing that sort of thing properly is neither within the charter of this publication, nor is it of particular interest to me. The logistics of purchasing equipment to do a hardware tear-down and comparison is expensive and time-consuming; don't underestimate the resources that would be required to do this properly, Gary. Furthermore, once we did this with one product, we'd have to apply the same criteria to all products, to be fair. This would mean permanently altering the long-time (nearly 17 years old) mission and culture at PFO, which is not going to happen. PFO is not the Consumer Reports of fine audio. Neither, to my knowledge, is anyone else.

So there's no conspiracy involved at this end, nor any lack of courage. The point is simple: AVOID GRAY MARKET GOODS. There's always a reason for unusually low prices, whether it's on a street corner, in a spam email trying to sell you "genuine" Microsoft software or "real Cialis," or audio "distributors" who are trying to market low-ball audio gear that's been cloned from the original design. AAA Audio's disclaimer of these products is obvious, and should be warning enough, no?

Dr. S's commentary on the subject has been anything but sub rosa; you should heed his caveat.

And to tell you the truth, I find the price of the legitimate Dussan gear to be remarkably reasonable, and their performance is stellar as I can personally attest. Why would I bother with the risk and hassle of knock-offs when I can have the legitimate product with full warranty for a song?

All the best,

David W. Robinson, Editor-in-Chief]

Ping Responds…

Hi Gary,

How are you? How does the amp sound now?

I heard your story from PFO. It is well understood. We have 30 days money back guarantee. We want every of our customer happy. You can still return it for a full refund.

I d' like to give you some information before you make your decision.

1. Dussun only supply their 120v products to us. We are the only authorized distributor in North America. You can buy 102v from only few places, not sure about Ornex, but the products are modified. To make the unit to run for 120v, needs to change the transformer and adjust the circuitry to handle different current, the voltage from the transformer will be the same. From the grey market you get a 120V products with a after market transformer, they buy 220v in China and change the transformer, the circuitry is not adjusted for the current level. Basically it is a fake Dussun. Since Dussun is so good, some people make transformer for it. Never heard such story for other brands. It will not sound good, it does not last long.

Several people e-mail me, they have problem with Dussun they bought some where. I'd really like to help them, but technically, it is impossible. They did not buy Dussun products. They bought junk.

Look fourth posting, his amp got "hum".

http://www.nysound.com/exec/servlet/CategoryServlet?action=productdetail&itemID=kos-2010-01001&formID=0

" Follow-up review on the Korsun V8i - Some issues..., 2004-11-10
Reviewer: Clinton Devereaux, from Havre de Grace, Maryland, U S A
I have received a lot of email from folks asking about how I like the Korsun V8i. Well, I have since sold the Korsun, and here is why: As I continued to use the V8i I began to notice a faint "hum" in the right channel. This was audible when my ear was placd up to the speaker and during silent passages in music. There was also audible mechanical hum coming from the transformers inside the unit, I could notice this from about 4 ft out from the amp. If were any futher away I could not hear it. Anyway, I figured it was DC on the AC line, Ground loop, etc... but after trouble shooting all these things I concluded that the transformers were bleeding hum into the output stage of the amp. This type of hum cannot be remedied without replacing the transformer(s), and can be quite expensive. Keep in mind that some mechanical hum can be expected from an amp, but when it comes through the speakers themselves (this is not mechanical) it is cause for concern. I replaced the Korsun with an Aragon 8008BB/Monarchy Model 10a"
 

You better off to get a 220v version and run a 110v-220v converter. Then you need a power filter. Most cheap converter are noise. They add up the cost to the same level as our price.

2. Price: We have much higher cost than grey marketers. They all do drop ship from China, they have no cost. I do not know about the tax. We pay international shipping, import tax and fee, US domestic transportation to warehouse, warehouse, sales tax on every unit we sell and every penny we make, service, promotion, US labor cost and so on.... I do think that our prices are very reasonable.

Just some information for you. Thank you again for purchasing our products, but you still can return it for a full refund.

Ping Gong
AAA Audio, LLC
phone: 617-614-0562
http://www.aaa-audio.com/

Ping (and, via Dave Robinson, Dr. Sardonicus at PFO):
I've just started listening, and so far I like what I hear.

I appreciate your information on the difference between "knock-offs" and the real thing. I sent the email to PFO yesterday because I think the entire issue of direct importation from China needs discussion and education for consumers. It's very confusing. It's not hard to find the websites where these products are sold, and I'm sure lots of potential buyers are going to these sites and wondering whether to take a chance. I've read the discussion on the Asylum, and while it's aiming at the issue, it sheds mostly heat and no light.

I think we need some real research and education by the journalists. Someone needs to do direct comparisons and report the results. Perhaps PFO is up to the challenge. Right now I sense that the audio press is avoiding the issue for fear of alienating their advertisers, which I think sends the implication, whether intended or not, that the locally sold product and the direct Chinese import are the same. If they're not the same, let's do the work to find out and then let's report the results.

I do not doubt that you are right that Ornex may be selling a different product. I have heard the same thing from other posters at Audiogon and at the Asylum—i.e. that voltage and other differences are not fully accounted for in the direct China import.

The other side of the issue is that some high end brands (like Red Rose) have long been reported to be importing products that are essentially similar to the Chinese products and simply re-badging them (and perhaps making the kind of modifications you do). I'd like to really know—from someone with technical expertise who could take the covers off and make the comparison—whether the Dussun DS 99 is essentially the same unit as the Red Rose Passion. Dave Robinson, take note—there's a good article lurking here.

The point I'm making is that it's not a black and white kind of issue. Consumers have gotten more savvy, and they know that a lot of products from China get sold (whether with modification or not) at multiples of their original price by U.S. companies. It's just human nature to sniff out the trail to its source and see if there's a better deal possible somewhere else—these people aren't evil. If the OEMs can do it, so can the consumers. That, I think, is ultimately the risk for the audio industry in going to China for manufacturing.

All of this being said, I recognize that your products are being offered at very fair prices and that they carry a guarantee—which is what gave me the confidence to buy the Dussun DS99 from you. And, you are not marking the product up to ten times it's original price.

Everything I have come to know about you so far reinforces that you are a fair and competent audio dealer, and I am glad I bought mine from you and not from New York Sound or Ornec. In addition, if I buy another Dussun product, which I am contemplating, I will buy it from you.

I hope PFO can shed some light on the whole controversy. They do a good job, and I appreciate their contribution to the hobby.

Sincerely,

Gary Wilbert
Charlottesville, VA

The Doctor Responds…

Ping (and, via Dave Robinson, Dr. Sardonicus at PFO):
I've just started listening, and so far I like what I hear.

The legitimate Dussun 99 is one of the true gems of audio. I used it to drive the huge XLH Reference 1812s to "drive you from the room" levels, and it maintained it’s sweet, almost tube-like character, throughout. Jennifer Crock of JENA Labs was present and she doesn’t like anything …she is impressed enough that she intends to write a sidebar. For circa $500 retail, everyone should have one, if just for a back-up.

I appreciate your information on the difference between "knock-offs" and the real thing. I sent the email to PFO yesterday because I think the entire issue of direct importation from China needs discussion and education for consumers. It's very confusing. It's not hard to find the websites where these products are sold, and I'm sure lots of potential buyers are going to these sites and wondering whether to take a chance. I've read the discussion on the Asylum, and while it's aiming at the issue, it sheds mostly heat and no light.

I think your letter is a great opportunity to address this issue, straight up.

Labor and material costs, as well as the relative value of the Yuan, means that Chinese manufactured goods are going to enjoy a significant price advantage in the market place. Of course, this price advantage is worthless if the quality is not there.

The transformer is the heart of any amplifier. We are not talking about changing bumpers on a gray market BMW here. I know for a fact that Dussun spent a great deal of money and effort coming to grips with our AC schema, without losing reliability and sound quality. Do you honestly think some hack is going to be able to buy a cheap transformer off-the-shelf, and produce equivalent results? If so, please email me, I have a piece of the true cross I am selling.

So you save a few bucks initially. It won’t sound or last like the factory piece, and you are SOL if you have any issues with it. Just toss it in the bin and move on. Penny wise and pound foolish.

I think we need some real research and education by the journalists. Someone needs to do direct comparisons and report the results. Perhaps PFO is up to the challenge. Right now I sense that the audio press is avoiding the issue for fear of alienating their advertisers, which I think sends the implication, whether intended or not, that the locally sold product and the direct Chinese import are the same. If they're not the same, let's do the work to find out and then let's report the results.

I am unaware of any issue with advertisers, one way or another here. I think it is pretty straightforward …absent compelling information that these importers provide equivalent parts and installation expertise, you are buying an inferior product when you go gray market. If price is your only consideration just go to Circuit City and be done with it. At least you get a 30 day return and manufacturers warranty.

If the grey-market folks want to submit proof their mods are factory equivalent, let’s see it.

I do not doubt that you are right that Ornex may be selling a different product. I have heard the same thing from other posters at Audiogon and at the Asylum—i.e. that voltage and other differences are not fully accounted for in the direct China import.

I will just say there are a number of horror stories out there. Caveat Emptor!

The other side of the issue is that some high end brands (like Red Rose) have long been reported to be importing products that are essentially similar to the Chinese products and simply re-badging them (and perhaps making the kind of modifications you do). I'd like to really know—from someone with technical expertise who could take the covers off and make the comparison—whether the Dussun DS 99 is essentially the same unit as the Red Rose Passion. Dave Robinson, take note—there's a good article lurking here.

This is a completely separate issue. Audio manufacturers buy parts, assemblies and even complete components from other sources. This is so common as to be inconsequential. Re-labeling is common and accepted. You don’t really think that Polaroid makes DVD players, do you?

There are a small number of manufacturers of speaker drivers, CD drives, capacitors, power supplies, etc. that many manufacturers use for sources.

It is silly to criticize this practice. Imagine critiquing a speaker manufacturer because they buy their drivers from Theile or Focal…

To simply re-label a piece manufactured elsewhere is also common.

As to markups, this is a market issue. If someone wants to charge a grand for three feet of jacketed Belden wire they bought at the local electronics supply house, this is their choice. You don’t have to buy it.

The point I'm making is that it's not a black and white kind of issue. Consumers have gotten more savvy, and they know that a lot of products from China get sold (whether with modification or not) at multiples of their original price by U.S. companies. It's just human nature to sniff out the trail to its source and see if there's a better deal possible somewhere else—these people aren't evil. If the OEMs can do it, so can the consumers. That, I think, is ultimately the risk for the audio industry in going to China for manufacturing.

You have to keep in mind, all this is new, and economic relationships with China will be sorting out for decades. But we have been here before. Look at your car, your TV set, your computer. Like it or not, we are transitioning into a world economy and we cannot and should not isolate ourselves.

All of this being said, I recognize that your products are being offered at very fair prices and that they carry a guarantee—which is what gave me the confidence to buy the Dussun DS99 from you. And, you are not marking the product up to ten times it's original price.

Everything I have come to know about you so far reinforces that you are a fair and competent audio dealer, and I am glad I bought mine from you and not from New York Sound or Ornec. In addition, if I buy another Dussun product, which I am contemplating, I will buy it from you.

I hope PFO can shed some light on the whole controversy. They do a good job, and I appreciate their contribution to the hobby.

Sincerely,

Gary Wilbert
Charlottesville, VA

Gary, thanks for taking the time and effort to write. I think this is a very worthwhile topic.

Doctor S.